• Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
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Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
on: October 21, 2019, 22:33:19
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 22:38:57 by Pleudoniem »
Congrats @oorlab and @DanJames

Just an idea here:

One of the difficult things with challenges like these is that the songs can be so very different that comparing them and ranking them feels a little odd. It was like comparing apples to oranges most of the time, whereas both fruits deserve praise for very different reasons and they appeal to very different tastes. So, might it be an idea to award points for different song aspects? For instance, a song that has great musical skill, but which may not be so accessible may get more points for the first aspect than for the latter, and still be awarded for what it contains. The same could go for lyrics, mixing, or other aspects.

The idea is a bit like the jerseys in the Tour de France. The overall winner gets yellow, but other best contenders get a different colour, or the polka jersey. One of the great things is also that contenders can see what is especially appreciated in their work.

Possibly that would be fair to some of the songs.
Pleudoniem: composer; bass guitarist; guitarist; singer; drummer; tap-guitarist - o, and yes... erm- a bit of keys. Open for collabs.
SoundCloud Page: https://soundcloud.com/pleudoniem


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #1 on: October 21, 2019, 22:55:52
good ideas @Pleudoniem - certainly for lyrics, and for music separate, and overall.
We could test it by pulling together all the winners of all the contests on this forum - as far as the makers are still members and the songs still online, and then test this jersey-polling idea.
New album  https://oorlab.bandcamp.com/album/future-journeys (autumn 2021) Future journeys


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #2 on: October 21, 2019, 23:06:07
@oorlab I am not sure what you mean there. All the previous winners? They were judged by different criteria than the jersey idea, so how do you propose we do this?

I think the best test would be to try it out in the next challenge. But then, I think we should only adopt the idea if it enjoys enough support. We could ask this time's contenders to vote? And after that, it needs to be implemented as well, which will beg a bit of programming work. I know that @Mar T.  is quite a genius when it comes to that, but it will take a bit of time.


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #3 on: October 21, 2019, 23:39:41
@Pleudoniem "All the previous winners? They were judged by different criteria than the jersey idea, so how do you propose we do this?"
But you can always rejudge. We could even try your jersey setup on Beatles songs, and it could be a poll on FB wherever, to test different criteria.
A playlist with  winners of previous challenges I could make - if others are interested in this.


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #4 on: October 21, 2019, 23:51:21
Hi @Pleudoniem and @oorlab , I split these few posts to a new discussion thread.
Good ideas! Not sure if we're going to change though.

To put it a bit into perspective:
In the early days the kitchen challenges (they were called competitions back then), people were allowed to vote for 1 winning song. Only 1. The votes were collected by the admins and the song/songwriter with the most votes won.
That felt even more unfair. By introducing the voting with points we did a very good job getting a step closer to that important 'fair' feeling.
Voters can express themselves better, and by presenting the top-5 publicly everybody gets a good grasp at which songs perform best in the listeners ears. We can also see how close (in terms of points) the top 5 songs were.

Imo this is the optimum. When we give the voters more options to spread points (in this case by letting voters give points to various aspects of the song) the voting process will become too complex and voters would probably not vote anymore at all.
If people think otherwise, let us know.. I'd like to keep the voting system we have right now. It's not perfect (no solution will ever be perfect) but it works like a charm imo..

Cheers!
Mar T.
:mart:
I'm proud of this track, check it out! https://soundcloud.com/martimedia/dreams


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #5 on: October 21, 2019, 23:59:22
@Mar T. If they participate, they will vote, I am sure. I think it is worth a try though and it really adds something valuable. If nobody votes, we'll have some idea why. Apart from that, if someone writes very impressive lyrics, I would like to be able to express that in my vote.

My idea is to vote for a max of 5 contenders, but valuing them by more than one criterium, possibly 4. I was thinking of musical proficiency, lyrics, authenticity, mixing. That way, it should not be too complicated. It would be like a little Xcel sheet you create then.


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #6 on: October 22, 2019, 00:19:24
I understand the idea @Pleudoniem , but I'm happy with the current voting procedure, so I'll keep using that 'system' for the challenges I host myself. Feel free to host a challenge yourself and experiment with your system. I'd be curious about the results of that experiment for sure!
Of course I'd be interested in hearing what other kitcheners think about this subject.


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #7 on: October 22, 2019, 01:15:12
@Mar T. I see the sense in the way you set up the voting system. It is simple, and indeed much better than only one vote for the one you like best. I can definitely see why you stick to it. If I like to change it to what I have in mind, then I would need a subdivision. It would have to look like:

Artist A:
lyric [pts]
musical prowess [pts]
authenticity [pts]
accessibility [pts]

Atist B:
---
etc...

In the way the polling system is set up now, that is not quite feasible, as there is only one mark per option, whereas I would need 4 per option. If I use the polling system as is, then that would require 11 different pols with each 4 options. Aye, that is a little too much, I agree.

So, what I was hoping for is a system like I described, and I'd be happy to host a challenge with it, but I am not a moderator and I cannot change the polling system from 1 to 4 marks per option. I am not even sure if it is possible to begin with, but I was hoping that you could change the settings, if you share my curiosity. All I am saying is that it may be worth a try, if it can be set up.

I am also curious if there might be others who think it's worth the experiment.







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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #8 on: October 22, 2019, 01:30:05
I got the concept already @Pleudoniem , after all I was a genius  ;) ;) ;)
My proposal was to try it the other way around with an excel sheet (the host receiving the cast votes by PM from all contestants), just to get an idea if this works better. Of course that would be what I hope for, but certainly do not expect, hence I'm in resistance mode altering forum software before we properly experimented ;-)
And since I've written more than 10.000 words about our voting system until now back into the past I don't feel like altering what we have now before I have a very strong reason (which includes proof AND other kitcheners opinions) before I go alter the poll system of the forum software..
So would you mind hosting a future challenge, not participate yourself, be the excel secretary to see if this idea could work? Btw I really think it will work, but I'm (by far) not sure it works 'significantly' better than what we have right now...


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #9 on: October 22, 2019, 02:56:10
@Mar T. I have no knowledge of your previous discussions, for me it is an entirely new topic. If I bore you, then that is entirely unintentional. If you want me to bore you intentionally, then just ask, I'd be happy to assist  ;D If I happen to be speaking to a genius in resistance, then that is unintentional too (about the resistance, I mean... :P)

I could host a challenge. I can compose an excel-sheet, but I don't know if such a thing can be implemented in a PM so that contenders can fill it in online, or if every contestant needs to fill in his or her own sheet and then return that to me. I can collect the data.

A downside is that only people who get a PM can vote, whereas for this challenge, guests must have voted as well judging from the number of points awarded. How do we incorporate the guests?

I think we agree that the overall end result may not be very much different, the yellow jersey will probably not change its owner, although you can only be sure if you take the test on two separate and independent groups with a large enough number of participants. That, however, is impossible as no two independent groups will ever produce the same songs for others to judge.

What I am interested in though, is whether contenders will be credited for specific skills, as I said, as in jerseys in the Tour de France.


Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #10 on: October 22, 2019, 09:08:46
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 19:38:07 by DanJames »
This all makes sense @Pleudoniem but the Kitchen already has a section for assessing the individual component parts of songs - Songs For Review.

The challenges invite listeners to express their appreciation of the  final product - that unique blend of all the parts, the essence of songwriting.

Throwing together outstanding lyrics, musical virtuosity, crowd pleasing hooks and wrapping it all in professional production (ie top marks across the board against your criteria) doesn’t guarantee  that the song is any good.


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #11 on: October 22, 2019, 12:42:52
@DanJames I think that when a song scores very high on (any of) these criteria, it will be hard to maintain that it isn't any good, even if the song might not agree with you. For instance, Bach's work is considered quite prodigous, but I find it difficult to like performances of his work, as they are too crowded with notes to my taste. I know that many people disagree with me there and think I am blasphemous. I do agree with you that the overall impression of the song is what counts to an individual listener in the end, but I don't think the two approaches necessarily bite each other.

I guess that I'd just like to make specific qualities of songs visible in the - or some form of - score. Again, I'd like to compare it to the jerseys in cycling. The person who wears the green jersey may not do very well as an overall championship contender, but (s)he does very well when it comes to sprints.

I do see difficulties though, or as we say in Dutch 'a couple of bears on the road'. For instance, a song may not have to rely on - for instance - musical virtuosity, but still go straight to the heart. In such a case, this song doesn't need any,  the criterion would be irrelevant to it.

Possibly there is a different way to make it visible in grades none the less, instead of having to change the polling system.

I am just curious.

 


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #12 on: October 22, 2019, 22:54:01
@Pleudoniem -  Bach could be interesting testing material to find out which aspects of a piece/ song /composition & recording can be used  to choose the 'best' or the most 'original' or 'emblematic' for a certain style or the works of a composer.
 
 A camaradic challenge like here in the kitchen amongst ourselves, of course  - can be settled with the polling as we have it now. In order to look into more aspects of a piece of music, we could in parallel organize something like a feedback survey for songwriters
https://www.musicalwriters.com/blog/audience-feedback-surveys/.



Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #13 on: October 22, 2019, 23:43:46
I don't join every challenge (I'm not very  prolific  in writing ) - but as a member I do make it a rule to listen and vote. Everybody does have different styles, abilities and equipment but I'm glad that doesn't hold anyone back who wants to enter. 

When you consider how much music is uploaded every day, this seems like a good way to get yourself listened to. 

Please don't make the voting too complex (for me just a listener)

Thanks,

Vince
Vince


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Re: Challenges - Voting system - Discussion
Reply #14 on: October 22, 2019, 23:46:33
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 23:50:07 by Pleudoniem »
@oorlab Yes, looking at the system the way you do makes sense.

Using the seeds sown here none the less, without meddling with the polling custom, it might be an idea for an artist to include his/her own polls in the reviews. That way, we'd be using them in a way that @DanJames proposes, and an artist can find out what he'd like to know about how people perceive specific characteristics of the song.

- and @Vince needn't worry about poll complexity :)



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