• Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #15 on: May 20, 2016, 23:42:51
Good point @Zedd , since some of us post covers as well ;-) 'Songs for review' sounds fine to me!


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #16 on: May 20, 2016, 23:59:36
Ok I just backed up the forum and I'll start moving all WIP's to the Finished Songs section. Afterwards I'll rename 'Finished Songs' to 'Songs for review'.
We can change the name of the resulting board later if anyone has a better suggestion.
MM


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #17 on: May 21, 2016, 00:04:54
Done ;-)


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #18 on: December 28, 2016, 00:17:02
Hi all, I'll blow some new life into this thread. In the meantime (back in may) we integrated the WIP and Finished Songs board to 'Songs for Review'. There's been some discussions in other threads recently, about this topic.
Let's see if we're still on the right track. When you all read the discussion in this thread (and the arguments in the OP), do we still think we made the right turn to integrate the boards?
I still completely believe the integration was a very good decision. The only problem imo at the moment is that not everybody is specific (about the 'stage'/'state' of the song, what they want feedback on etc) when posting a song in the 'Songs for Review' thread. So I'd opt for encouraging everybody to be more specific about the required feedback. Of course everybody is free to post 'finished' work (that is.. everybody will define 'finished' differently), and say 'Hey this is finished, enjoy!' or 'Hey this is finished, but still feedback on every aspect is appreciated'..
Let us know fellows, and continue the discussion here.
Cheers!
:mart:


Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #19 on: December 28, 2016, 03:48:51
My inclination would be to have separate sections, but if one of the forums has been traditionally underused, then I can understand the argument for unification. I would have no problem with a single forum if everyone was clear about what type of comments/crits/suggestions they want, but the reality is that folks won't necessarily do this, and certainly not consistently.

The other part of my reasoning has to do with my predilections for comment and critique.  If I know or sense that a song is done and the writer is not going to change something specific I mention, regardless of how good or valid my suggestion is, I'm not going to waste my time.  On the other hand, if I sense that the song is done but there is something general about it that will serve the song-writer in the future, that's a different animal, and I'm more likely to comment on it.  However, generally speaking, I prefer the former type of comment than the latter.  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to listen to completed works (especially of song writers as I get to know them) but I listen to completed works all the time, anywhere.  In that sense, I'm much more interested in process and WIP's.


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #20 on: December 28, 2016, 04:11:07
I was one of those that wanted them integrated back in May (can't believe it was that long ago!) - mainly because the WIP section was hardly visited and songs would remain there without any responses etc.

So I'm happy with everything in Songs For Review - if as @M57 states if everyone was clear about what they want from posting the track.

With either option, I still have a problem with what to do with new versions - do you delete/close one thread to open another? I've tried changing the title to indicate a new mix etc. but what I've found is that if I post a song in it's early stages, get feedback, post a new version, then this new version doesn't get any responses or listens. So I dont get the benefit of getting feedback as the song progresses.

But as I say, that's irrelevant to whether we have a WIP section or not.

cheers


Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #21 on: December 28, 2016, 05:14:18
Quote
With either option, I still have a problem with what to do with new versions - do you delete/close one thread to open another? I've tried changing the title to indicate a new mix etc. but what I've found is that if I post a song in it's early stages, get feedback, post a new version, then this new version doesn't get any responses or listens. So I dont get the benefit of getting feedback as the song progresses.

I basically have this same question that @Jurgen has.

Additionally when @Jurgen and @dashyell posted their new years song competition I understood that it was finished based upon their writing. But maybe others didn't get that. So maybe, a specific label in the subject line that everyone should use?
Bill
Songwriter, Keyboards, Arranger, Producer & Engineer for November Sound

November Sound is based on the Mother, Father & Son musical trio of Melissa, Bill & Will. I'm the father so anything I post will have my wife singing and/or my son playing percussion.


WIP vs Finished Songs & other protocols
Reply #22 on: December 28, 2016, 13:35:20
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 13:37:30 by M57 »
Quote from: The Kitchen
Songs for review
Post your song in any state of the songwriter process. The earlier you post, the more helpful and useful the feedback will be for you!

Maybe this site is not large enough to attract unwanted attention, but there is little in the way of verbiage that would deter people who have no interest in having their work critiqued, and simply wish to promote their music. Other than that, I like it; it's very concise.  Maybe the fact that some of these songs are the result of a 'competition' should have been clue enough.  Honestly, the word "competition" is somewhat anathema to me.  The word brings to mind college juries, battles of the bands and the general qualitative heirarchical approach to evaluating art. Obviously, my problem is deeply rooted in something that must have happened in my youth, and subsequently reinforced by OCD and my natural stubborn nature, but I cringed as I watched the Rachmaninoff Piano Competition.  "Songwriting Challenge" would be a better word for me personally ..but enough about me and my [ahem] 'issues.'

I have found that helping others with their music gives me insight into process, and that in turn helps me as I develop my own skills. Community is a large part of that, and to that end, I am willing to listen to finished songs (especially if I've been party or witness to the process), but I'm much more interested and inclined to comment on WIPs, and I don't care for the discomfort of not knowing what the intentions of the poster are.

As for the re-posting of WIPs.. I think a simple change in the subject line in the first post - as I have done here - helps to bring clarity.  Also, I notice that there are Icons to the left of the Subject.  Is that something that admin can modify?  You could have icons for the following states..

  • WIP (Fresh from the Oven)
  • WIP (Any and All comments)
  • WIP (please be gentle)
  • WIP (Just the song, please)
  • Nearing Completion
  • Final Mix


Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #23 on: December 28, 2016, 14:22:50
Yes. Some kind of labeling/ icon system.  ::thumb::     

Then do we repost each subsequent version or do we edit the original and keep changing the icon?


Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #24 on: December 28, 2016, 14:48:52

Then do we repost each subsequent version or do we edit the original and keep changing the icon?
You can update the version in the lead post (and at the point of update in the thread). Change the Subject Name, and Change the Message Icon.  All that may be too much or too complicated for some, but the tools are there, and it can be pointed out that the more you use them, the more likely you will get the kind of responses you are looking for.


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #25 on: December 28, 2016, 15:03:41
I like @M57 's idea of using that kind of icon/labelling system to represent the state of songs too :)

And I agree with @Jurgen and @November Love   that we could have the system of 'changing states' improved in a way that following and giving feedback along the song's complete development is made easier... Perhaps we could discuss a consistent way of how we could effectively achieve this  ???

eg These kinds of threads tend to get lots of posts and it sometimes gets difficult to follow the stage at which the song has arrived (especially if you start following the thread late OR if the song is progressing at a very fast pace - it's easy to get lost in all the posts). Perhaps the opening first post in the thread should be a base where the song's milestones are clearly indicated during the song's history so that it would be easier for listeners to follow the different stages - sort of a summary of the stages together with links to the song at the different stages - so that it would be easier for listeners to understand the point at which the song has arrived at first glance (and then it would be easier to read through the other kitcheners' comments with a better understanding of where the song currently lies and in turn that would make it easier to follow and in a better position to give valuable feedback.

I think that it would also be useful to have the already mentioned icon system changing in parallel with the song's development... we could maybe attribute a number system in the icons as well? say for example Stage (1) (WIP), Stage (2) (nearing completion), Stage (3) (final mix). And say number 1 could have a different colour code to indicate the WIP types that M57 identified.

And maybe we could have an option to input a Post title (ie the usual song name) and a Subtitle (to describe the stages that M57 suggested eg 'any and all comments' etc) so that the Main Post title itself does not get too cluttered with a lot of words in the main feed.

Another idea - To improve aesthetics of opening post: Could it be beneficial to have the opening post split in 2 columns? (when viewed on a computer screen one gets a lot of 'wasted space' especially if one is posting lyrics as they take up a lot of vertical space and not horizontal). So maybe we could have one column with the lyrics and the other column with a description of the song and the summary of the stages and corresponding music links.
Rachel  ::Rachel::
https://.com/rachel_debattista


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #26 on: December 28, 2016, 15:06:09
(I was writing my post while you posted your last post @M57)


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #27 on: December 28, 2016, 16:20:16
Honestly, the word "competition" is somewhat anathema to me.  The word brings to mind college juries, battles of the bands and the general qualitative heirarchical approach to evaluating art. Obviously, my problem is deeply rooted in something that must have happened in my youth

Ah, yes......it was 1966 and we opened the Battle of the Bands with "Louie Louie". There was a good crowd and we were tight....we had this nailed. Our organist started in the wrong key.

I digress.

Perhaps the opening first post in the thread should be a base where the song's milestones are clearly indicated during the song's history so that it would be easier for listeners to follow the different stages

This is how I tend to handle things. I like to keep an active link to the first version so folks can compare and I always post the most recent version (with a notation) in the first post as well as in my most recent post.
"The main thing is to have a gutsy approach....but use your head." Julia Child

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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #28 on: December 28, 2016, 19:46:22
Quote
.......Change the Subject Name, and Change the Message Icon.  All that may be too much or too complicated for some......
    ????

I certainly hope not. The people in this forum can operate a DAW, run active soundcloud accounts, navigate this forum, play instruments, create music, sing, record, mix and a number of the members even write songs in what is essentially their second language. I'm impressed by the talent, creativity and resourcefulness that I see here. 

@Rachel_D the suggestions you have seem really good along with the system of changing icons suggested by M57. I especially think the subtitle section would be useful. But either way something consistent, clear and "not too complicated" would be great. 


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Re: Should we integrate WIP and Finshed songs?
Reply #29 on: December 29, 2016, 00:54:48
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 01:19:37 by Mar T. »
@M57  Thanks for your reply. Yes, the WIP section was heavily underused and the finished section
was having focus. Our vision for this community is helping each other and learn from each other,
so  the decision to integrate the two sections served our collective purpose (at that point in
time). Great to read you give and learn, that's a fantastic approach imo (and I can relate to that).
Great to read you agree with the need for the poster to be more specific about
what feedback he/she's looking for. Let's find a solution for that problem together.
About the 'competition' phenomenon: yes, please read 'challenge' instead of the negative side of
'competition'. We're actually challanging each other, and at the same time supporting each other.
We encourage to collaborate in competitions, and create new creativeness that way. The comps always
have a time-limit and to me the results are always jaw-dropping. We declare a 'winner' but that
should not be the reason to enter one of our 'competitions'. The reason to join should be to have
fun creating (sometimes really silly, other times just beautiful and inspiring) assignments, deal
with the limitations and get something out in time. It's fun! We implemented a voting system to
declare a winner (and at the same time give our support to all entries, we're voting with points,
and we're allowed to give points to as many entries as we want). It's a bit like a proven best
practice to orginise comps, have fun, support each other, learn from each other and see what song
is voted nr 1 (maybe to find a formula for a succesful wow-factor hit). I never experienced the
negative side of 'competing' in our comps in this beautful kitchen. And I hope that goes for all
of the regulars. I heard fantastic wow-factor songs from our comps last year. Especially the
'Cover a song from another kitchener' comp. I hope I convinced you somehow to see 'comps' from
another angle as well, just because I think this side of the comps should be in the spotlight.

@Jurgen So we also agree about being specific what kind of feedback you're looking for. We'll
figure something out. Great question about new versions of the song.
Just like some others I tend to start 1 thread with a concept, and keep all comments in that
thread (while posting new versions and updating the subject of the thread) for my own good. Having
all suggestions in all different stages in one thread is a great way to be able to overview and
learn. It removes the need to go find all different threads first.
BUT you're also right one tends to follow but only comment on the first iteration (in general).
Maybe that's not bad at all (and that's subjective of course). I've seen a lot of valuable feedback
from the ones that listened to the song (the x-th iteration/version) for the first time.
When somebody has listened for the first time they have no reference to the previous version and
DON'T get focussed on only the difference instead of the 'whole package'. Don't get me wrong, it's
always fantastic to receive all kind of feedback imo. But I really seperate 'first listens' and
'followed up' listens. Fact is we can use first listens at any stage of development and I hope when
we grow a bit more that'll solve organically. Thanks for always participating in our debates!!

A bit off-topic: I try (sometimes I violate my own rule) to listen and write a response BEFORE I
read the other feedback just to make sure my comments are strictly personal (and sometimes that
takes some courage, because others might disagree with me, which btw is perfectly fine to me, nobody
has to agree, I only want to help the writer). Do you recognise that?

@Bill from November Love   great to read your reply, thanks for thinking along!
Great question and I hope to drive the discussion a bit with my thoughts in reply to @Jurgen
I'm in for '1 thread a song and keep all development inside that thread', for the writer's
convenience, but also to manage the searchability of our forum. It's hard to watch the process of
development when it's posted in different threads. I like the 'updating the subject' to reflect
the 'state' of the song philosophy. And indeed a kind of 'label' saying what kind of feedback the
writer is searching for is really helpful. I'll search for a solution and discuss it before implementing
in this thread.

@Rachel_D
Thanks for your reply! In the OP is the exact challenge I was facing last year. How to make asking for
feedback more specific? I proposed to use a 'web-form'
(https://www.songwriter-forum-kitchen.com/forum/forum-newsupdates/need-help-developing-a-model-of-the-state-of-a-songproviding-feedback).
A 'form' instead of the 'new topic' in 'Songs for Review' board, just to serve a detailed 'thread' start.
I lowered the development on my to-do list because there were others that found that to be a bit too complicated, and at that time the forum move to
the Netherlands was getting a higher priority (because of the stability issues with the old 'free'
host). I kind of never picked up on this later, great to read opportunities to maybe develop this a
bit more. I'll get back on this in a new topic (called something like 'How to direct poster to be more
specific about the feedback he/she wants') and let's try to develop this idea there. Ok? I have the
feeling at least Bill, Jurgen, Leonard and M57 will be happy to think along.
About the 2 columns and the extra subtitle: that's a huge step (we're dealing with standardized
forum software), to be short this has too much impact on the software (and would affect the posting
in the other boards like eg 'Me' and 'Life' as well. So I reversed engineered to the 'what/functionality' questions).
Maybe we can deal with the 'subtitle' need when figuring out how we direct posters to ask more specific questions.
As for the columns: that might be possible when using a form for the first post (we could make the form intelligent enough
to create a 'table' with two columns in the first post, the most right containing the lyrics). BUT.. haha
there's always that 'BUT..' we have to consider everybody's watching on a different sized screen. So where you have
enough 'room', others watching on an iPhone will have no room at all  ;) ;)

All, on the other side of the reasoning we have to realize that there's always a silly note ringing in
this kitchen, I'm all in for making the platform as supportive as possible, but a lot of our members just
want to post away, and they enjoy the praise or the fun (or even that somebody 'listens' to their work),
or the clicks on their SoundCloud track. As far as I concern (almost) every personal reason to be here is
appreciated. So whatever solution we find, we have to take care of that important part of our community
as well.

My usual disclaimer:
I hope I didn't 'hurt' anyone with my reply. I realise I'm not speaking English natively and often
I'll choose not the optimal 'words' to deliver my message. If I did hurt I'm sorry from my heart,
mea culpa.

Thanks all for thinking with us, it's all very good intentions to improve the kitchen and make it even
better.

Cheers all!
:mart:






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