• So What Exactly Is A Song?
  • Started by M57
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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 18:05:41
Hey @Dutchbeat my friend, you know me, I want everybody to be able to post his/her work in the Songs for Review thread, whether it's a 'song' or 'music' according to the dictionary  ;)
I'm against splitting up the Songs for Review into subcategories for 3 reasons:
1. Simple forum structure
Once we start deviding our main category 'Songs for Review' in different sub-boards we'll start seeing work being posted in the 'wrong' board, resulting in the need to further split the review board into subsections.
I don't think it adds value to try to categorize music and it will make the forum structure too complex.
 
2. Everybody needs attention
The Songs for Review is our most popular category. Everybody has the same chance to 'get' some attention from the other kitcheners. When we start sub-boards we'll probably see they will be overlooked.

3. Development of songs
Just like you I love to see 'work' posted in Songs for Review in any stage of the development. We've seen beautiful music/songs being developed over time in this way.

So for now my suggestion would be to keep all as-is. If a kitchener encounters an instrumental in the Songs for Review board, while he/she only wants to listen to 'songs', then he/she can simply skip to the next Song for Review.
I'm triggered though by @M57 's question so in the poll I intended to check how our kitcheners see the concept 'song'.
If a majority of us tends to see a 'song' as a 'strict' concept, we might have an issue we want to solve by looking into solutions like renaming the board to 'Music for Review', implement a mandatory field 'music / song' at topic post time etc.

@M57 Imo it's important we check with the community to see if there's more people having problems with encountering 'music' instead of 'songs' in the Songs for Review thread. If that's a trend, we'll try to think of possible solutions together.

Cheers! :mhm:
:mart:


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #16 on: March 11, 2017, 18:36:52
@Mar T. I absolutely agree - I don't doubt that mine is a minority opinion.  I write instrumental music but I don't post it here.  I'm here as a song-writer and I'm simply not interested in having to navigate around, and especially through instrumental music posts.

I do very much appreciate that 'categorization' is anathema to many artist types, and I acknowledge that lines are blurry and slopes can be slippery, but I would also proffer that each time you create another sub-forum type you also are offering people a more precise way to reach (or find) their intended audience.  Yes, it can be overdone, but consider the advantages of a well though-out system. People who post and check-in in the "right" places reap the benefits of a well-organized system, and in a smaller and more active community like the Kitchen, it can be kindly suggested that their post might be better served in a different forum.

Playing devil's advocate again - If ANY music can be posted and is welcome in the Songwriting forum, then what differentiates this site from any music composition related site?


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #17 on: March 11, 2017, 18:44:20
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 18:54:31 by Mar T. »
..People who post and check-in in the "right" places reap the benefits of a well-organized system..
I agree, and I'm confident the system is well-organized now, but to make sure I asked a few other kitcheners to respond ;-)

Playing devil's advocate again - If ANY music can be posted and is welcome in the Songwriting forum, then what differentiates this site from any music composition related site?
Of course that's up to you. For me it's definately the forum culture.. We're a community with a positive mindset, trying to help each other improve. I cannot say that for many other fora I've seen in the past...  AND of course, we love a sense of humour over here, talking about making music, and creating music/songs is fun after all isn't it?

Btw, feel free to share your instrumentals here, I love listening to your work!
:mart:


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 01:16:36
That's an interesting discussion. Although I partly agree with @M57 and some others on what a song is (a piece of music with sung or spoken lyrics that tell a story), I voted for the first option in the poll.
The kitchen is growing, and that's great. But at the moment I still find it not too hard to keep track of everything thats going on. And since I (at least roughly) know what to expect from most regularly posting kitcheners, I don't think splitting up the songs board is necessary yet. But maybe one day...
Of course categorising music can be very difficult in many cases, especially when you have to put a label on your own stuff. I always have a hard time when SoundCloud asks me to tag my songs... ;D

On the other hand I love to take potluck with any new song from the kitchen buffet. There are so many beautiful discoveries to make time and again. And if I stumble upon something I don't like, I just move on... ;D


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 02:41:46
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 02:47:39 by M57 »
Btw, feel free to share your instrumentals here..

@Mar T. I might consider doing so if there was a forum for instrumental or 'other' music, but like I said before, that is not why I am drawn to this site.  I am specifically interested in the 'song' form because that is where I am in my life as a composer. I feel that the intricacies and nuances involved in writing and performing/recording lyrics in music requires unique skill-sets that simply don't apply to many other genres of music.  I've also written quite a bit of choral music; but again, and even though those compositions and arrangements have melody, lyrics, and are sung, in effect qualifying them even by my previously suggested standards, I feel they would only dilute the point of a "song-writing forum.

Yes, this site is fun, friendly, and all that other stuff, and I applaud and am attracted to being involved in a culture where those virtues are valued and nurtured, but ultimately I'm here as a song-writer (I was initially drawn by the title of the site), and I have to balance my participation in these forums with the perceived value of my personal time. So even though the number of posts to this site may be considered relatively small, I do not have the time to go through all of them - and though @Mark Luto did not suggest splitting things (yet), he did make the point that he knows "what to expect" from regulars.  I am in the same boat, and as I find that a growing percentage of posts are not "songs," (it is growing) and because I simply don't have time to listen to instrumental music, I end up only listening to those regulars.  I know I'm missing some songs as a result - thus my frustration.


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #20 on: March 12, 2017, 03:41:06
@M57 that's the whole point, imo the unique culture here is that we're intending to listen to each other's work (and choose for ourselves what 'work' we focus on when listening and commenting). You're doing fine and you're delivering quality feedback to 'work' that has your interest. (and I'm still hoping for one of my works reviewed by you  ;) ;) ).

I agree with @Mark Luto , we kind of 'know' what to expect from who. And if we don't we kindly ask for missing info like 'lyrics'.

Imo every kitchener is special. Most of us choose to comment on whatever musical work we admire, thus all comments are intended to be helpful. I'm convinced this is what the majority of our kitcheners want to see.
This is not about personal preferences, it's about 'us'. Glad to read you're aware that's our unique selling point.
Are you one of us?  ::) ::) I certainly hope so. I'd love to see you making that choice  ;)

If it was for me I'd say: let's welcome everyone and embrace any musical work.. And let's make sure we're that one community that cares.. About each other, about each other's work, about the fun you experienced when developing your work, and about accepting each others work without restrictions...
We all have a passion for creating, thus we create. I'm sure we'll love to hear all creations without the need to 'label' them. Again: everybody's free to ignore any creation. Following the Songs for Review thread will draw you in to the core beliefs of this community for sure... And it challenges you as as listener to add value for each individual contributor, and at the same time develop into an even more skilled/helpful listener.

That's about all I can say about this subject.
Have a nice weekend kitcheners!
:mart:





Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #21 on: March 15, 2017, 23:52:13
what a thread :) im not gonna contribute much to whats said before here... just had to add one little thing i found in
a list of tips on writing music. it went something like this

"lyrics are not poems set to music"

i thaught it was kinda funny. not even an advice. in one way i agree, but a recent competition here pretty much proves the oposite :D


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 02:08:00
AFAIKS lyrics (or lack of lyrics) are everything we want them to be and music/songs are everything we want them to be. We're creators and listeners. And 'what we create' and 'what we love to listen to' is very personal.
 
Most of us in the kitchen (interpreting the results of the poll so far) see a kitchen 'song' a bit broader than just the strict definition in the dictionary, so for now we'll continue with one board 'Songs for Review'.
We're studying tagging the individual songs though. And when we grow bigger as a kitchen we should keep evaluating if an extra board for music/instrumentals is needed.

Most important for now (while we are growing) is for 'creators' to feel free (and don't be shy) to post any music/sounds in the Songs for Review board and for the 'listeners' to feel free to listen to whatever you prefer (though I'd like to encourage all listeners to listen to other works than your preferred style as well).

We're all proud of what we create and we love to share our results with each other. What I love so much about the kitchen community is that we're interested in each other, support each other, help each other and have fun together. After all we have the most beautiful passion imaginable: creating songs/music/sound!

Let's sustain that feel and pay it forward. That's our roots!
Cheers all,
:mart:


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 10:26:26
"A song springs, sometimes unbidden, from the depths of the soul as an emotional expression of the human condition."  Unknown

A song can be sung, played, whistled, hummed or beat out on pots and pans.

Here in The Kitchen....a song is crafted.

 8)

"The main thing is to have a gutsy approach....but use your head." Julia Child

 "In a world of robotic conformity, the only originality left in music is the imperfections" Eric Craptone

"Special thanks to Steve Gleason for making me who I am today." Leonard Scaper

Lenny's Tunes: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=540680

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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #24 on: March 17, 2017, 01:00:49

I'd like to see some data. How many songs posted on the site per month are instrumentals and how many songs (with lyrics). If we could see this over the past 12 months we could get a grip on how much of a problem this might be. Could that be done easily @Mar T.? Are instrumentals truly increasing as @M57 says or is it perhaps a temporary blip this year?

I think it is likely that if instrumentals are separated from songs, fewer will listen to them. If the forum thinks that proliferation of instrumentals is a time sink and a turn off for site users, then maybe we could leave them mixed in with the other songs but mark them in some way (an emoji like ::Note::? mebbe) so that people browsing can immediately recognize them and click or not click as they want. Of course this is all work for someone.


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Re: So What Exactly Is A Song?
Reply #25 on: March 17, 2017, 01:11:48
Hey @Olbigead thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Somebody will have to count all the songs by hand then to get this statistic. Yes I'm the IT-wizard here, but writing a software program to scan all entries AND determine if there's sung words in them would be a hell of a job. So I think it's easier to just say what we feel ourselves. I have absolutly no problem at all with listening to as much as possible different 'type' of songs  in the Songs for Review thread. And I believe it helps connecting and uniting as a community.
So far I did not receive a wish to change this from a lot of different people. And I see the same risks as you. Marking the 'type' of song may be a solution, but imo only if a lot of people want this.
Cheers,
:mart: