• How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #45 on: December 29, 2016, 07:05:32
I share your comment re: if it wasn't for the forum I would be the only one listening to the music I make, @cosignsessions - so I definitely value this place. Not only because it gives me an audience but because I get to hear new music outside of the mainstream.

I think we can all add something to the recording process as far as critique or suggestions are concerned. ie. you can offer mixing, others can offer thoughts on lyrics or vocals etc.

And you definitely hit the nail on head re: "you get out of it what you put in" - this is the only a place like this can thrive and grow. As @Mar T. says, "pay it forward"

cheers


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #46 on: January 27, 2017, 14:13:08
I was thinking about this thread this morning..........how we are able to improve our work simply by listening to the work of our peers, particularly in a cooperative environment like this.

I have listened to everything that has been posted since I pulled up a chair here and in the process I have gleaned many things that have affected my last two projects in subtle ways. Not so subtly, however, I recently commented on @Zedd 's excellent tune when I noticed some subtle percussion thing that caught my ear. I knew she would not mind me bringing it up. This morning I decided to listen to my last tune one more time before moving on and, lo and behold...there was a very similar thing to what I had heard in "Awfully Keen" (https://soundcloud.com/monnodb/awfully-keen).

I remixed and was smiling all the way through the bounce.




"The main thing is to have a gutsy approach....but use your head." Julia Child

 "In a world of robotic conformity, the only originality left in music is the imperfections" Eric Craptone

"Special thanks to Steve Gleason for making me who I am today." Leonard Scaper

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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #47 on: January 28, 2017, 00:36:08
That's kinda cool @Leonard Scaper .. one of these days years I'll be posting - figured out the drum thing on 'Awfully Keen' and fixed it!!


You're right though - part of the learning here is reading the feedback and hearing things that others are pointing out. It's a great 'school'!!!


I'll post another time about the inspiration for said song - it's relevant to another pf the songwriting discussion threads !


Delighted my fault removed one of yours and loved the image of the 'smiling bounce'!!!


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #48 on: January 30, 2017, 02:07:27
That's exactly the value of providing feedback to each other imo @Leonard Scaper ! Everybody has a different skill-set, different talents, different taste, different areas of interest etc as a musician/songwriter. But also as a listener. In all comments there'll be pointers for other writers as well. And when there's a lot of positive replies from as many different people (read: different perspectives) as possible, it's very likely you're on the 'right' track. Together we're a great compass to guide our kitcheners to that wow-factor song.

In your case I loved to read you picked up a certain aspect of production (on another song than yours) to improve your own productions.. Imo that's the value of the kitchen community listening, showing attention, being interested and taking care for each other.

To @all:
I really hope every kitchener takes time to listen to each others work and just write down what you think/feel.. don't be shy, nor be an ego..
Either dropping a single line or writing an extensive review is helpful. Don't hesitate. Don't judge, be repectful. Tell what you liked and (if any) provide some suggestions to improve.

Lately I'm seeing not every song being provided with a 'fair' amount of feedback/suggestions, so I'm sure we can do even better together. If you enjoy kitcheners reviewing your own work, please be sure to pay that forward my friends! We all know how great it feels when your song is being listened to. So every writer should experience that feeling. And everything you comment is not only valuable to the writer, but to everybody who is following the thread (and here to learn) as well..

And of course let's continuously keep discussing in this thread what we can do to improve our interaction considering 'posting songs' and 'requesting feedback'. Let's don't forget that 'listening' is one of the main services our community provides!

Cheers!
:mart:
I'm proud of this track, check it out! https://soundcloud.com/martimedia/dreams


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #49 on: November 18, 2017, 00:49:52
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 00:56:11 by Mar T. »
Hi everybody! I'm going to give this thread a bump again. Saw some discussion about this subject lately.
@MichaelA and @M57 please continue the discussion here.

I'll add a bit of vision here to relate to.
We've been working our a@^5sses off providing a platform to host a happy community of songwriters who like to share their work/listen to each other's work. There's a lot of different people in every aspect you can imagine.

What we want to see is that we approach each other with respect and care by default. A good ambience with lots of encouraging interaction is our main value.
When I'm inviting new members to introduce themselves I hope to learn more about their songwriting goals, and to be of help when they're asking for 'feedback'. When I'm feeding back I mention a few things I like,  and I try to provide guidance to that one aspect that can result in the biggest step-forward (imho) for this particular song or for the next song (depending on the phase in the development cycle the posted work is in (concept, wip, almost finished, finished)). I'll not dictate my 'methodology' here, but I think it's a common-sense 'way' of helping each other.

Every now and then the subject 'honest' feedback pops up. And in that context 'honest' always seems to 'mean' that you can say anything to each other.
Well today I tried that. I walked down the street and I yelled to the first person I run into: 'Hey man you're ugly, and an ass hole!!'. I'm typing slowly right now, because I only have one eye to monitor what I'm typing.
So this is not the way to go. I believe that we can be 'honest' to each other, without being disrespectful.
So unless somebody asks to be 'brutally honest' when calling for feedback, I'd like to ask everybody to follow the 'encouraging/constructive' feedback style I expained above.

On the other hand as a songwriter community we don't want to tell everybody: 'Wow, that sounds great!'. That won't help us improve either. So there's two sides to this coin. Unless somebody says 'Not interested to improving' (or something like that) I'd try to mention some top's but also some tips/pointers..

We're all different people, with different skill-sets. Nobody is an expert. Nobody is a noob. What we have in common is that we're all unique. We're trying to help each other improving whatever aspec we want to improve here.
I will not tolerate disrespectfulness/rudeness. We can all be 'honest' but we will be honest with the sole aim of helping each other. It's my personal mission to keep all of us aligned with this vision. The kitchen is a 'safe' place. So let's make fun together, and nobody should feel punished when they posted a song that 'somebody' doesn't like.

Ok?

Cheers everybody, let's have fun together!! :bloodymarti:
:mart:

 


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #50 on: November 18, 2017, 01:21:15
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 01:31:22 by MichaelA »
Thanks @Mar T. for re-starting this. Yep, me and @M57 have had a slight disagreement today, but I do realise he is different to me and is giving constructive comments, even though they are more bluntly delivered than I would personally want to dish out myself.

I liked the conclusion to the Kitchen Summit - ie that the Kitchen would be a fun place to be. Yes FUN!!!

So it's not much fun, in my view, if people are harsh critics of your much cherished work. Songwriters, being creative people are mostly a relatively sensitive bunch of souls compared to the general population. That's  why the best of them can reach out and create art and meaning to life in art that is beyond less sensitive members of the community. I've read stuff  on here before of people leaving the forum after a brutal song review. That can't be right.

We have all levels of songwriter and song producer/performer on here. All should be welcome and all encouraged.

In my view all reviews should start from the point of view of being on the side of the poster. If you respond, well it is because you are trying to help and encourage. If you just want to diss them, well maybe go somewhere else. This place is about being gently constructive.

The rule for review is simple. Only post in a tone and style that you would be totally comfortable in receiving yourself. If you are posting something that would make you yourself upset, then reword it in a way that is more diplomatic. Songwriters want to hear constructive criticism and mainly ideas to help them improve. People commenting are not meant to be professional reviewers of the music press with barbed and condescending assessments that will make their subjects run for the hills never to be seen on here again.

Plus I think we should have a report button to flag up unnecessarily harsh reviews so that they can be deleted - and so everyone would know that this is not what we are all about on here.

If you like novels with a musical theme, why not try 'Sixth Beatle - When Music Changed The World', easily found on Amazon and Google. It is amazing, although as the author I may be biased!


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #51 on: November 18, 2017, 01:33:55
Hi @MichaelA we completely agree!

As for the report button, it's already here.. It's called 'report to moderator'. Always in the down-right corner of every post.. Click it and our staff will be notified..


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #52 on: November 18, 2017, 01:37:46

As for the report button, it's already here.. It's called 'report to moderator'. Always in the down-right corner of every post.. Click it and our staff will be notified..


Great, I am glad you are one step ahead, ha ha!  ;D


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #53 on: November 18, 2017, 01:43:22
This place is about being gently constructive.

I think that pretty much says it all...gently constructive.

I'll go on record and say that you, @MichaelA , are one of the best reviewers I have read on any site. You are honest and forthright while at the same time always finding that nugget of goodness in everything you review.

 8)


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #54 on: November 18, 2017, 01:46:06
This place is about being gently constructive.

I think that pretty much says it all...gently constructive.

I'll go on record and say that you, @MichaelA , are one of the best reviewers I have read on any site. You are honest and forthright while at the same time always finding that nugget of goodness in everything you review.

 8)
+1 @Leonard Scaper ! For you @MichaelA !


Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #55 on: November 18, 2017, 04:57:32
You all pulled the plug on Mr57's friend Hobosage pretty quickly when he was dishing out his "real world" criticism. Meanwhile, we may have just lost another member. We can't just keep saying that members come and go for various reasons and we don't know why. We kind of do.
 
There are lots of places to submit your song with a $25 entry fee and get advice from real industry professionals. So, when someone wants harsh criticism they can go to one of those places.

Bill
Songwriter, Keyboards, Arranger, Producer & Engineer for November Sound

November Sound is based on the Mother, Father & Son musical trio of Melissa, Bill & Will. I'm the father so anything I post will have my wife singing and/or my son playing percussion.


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #56 on: November 18, 2017, 10:38:21
Just my $0.05: I found @M57 review balanced and constructive and not harsh at all. Only thing that could be perceived as harsh too me (and remember that is me, ymmw) would be the word cliche. Guess it is (as always) an eye of the beholder sort of thing.

First paragraph mentions all the things he liked, second the part he did not like complete with an analysis why he did not like it and even hints on directions for improvements.
In third paragraph he even states "Regardless, that's all subjective."

The "reviews" we give and receive here are merely opinions and very subjective and should be taken as such.

One reviewer disliking some part of my song really does not bother me much, it is only one person's subjective opinion. Think the only thing that would upset me would be if focused shifted from the song to me as a person. Depending on who the person is may add some more weight to it but it is still just one person. If a significant number of reviewers point at the same "issue" I may start to consider it but most of the time I end up ignoring them since once I post anything I've been through it enough to convinced that it is the way I like it to be. As an example: if a number of people that I know are primary acoustic 1+1 singer songwriters I would not be too concerned even if they found my drum track being too busy. If a number of people I know are more into pop/rock have the same opinion re the drums I may start to re-evaluated but still I'd probably be sufficiently confident that I had made my homework before posting and stick too it.

I remember starting out when I would run for the mixer as soon as one review found the track e.g. too bass heavy. After a while I learned that 9 times out of 10 another reviewer would find the bass spot on or even lacking.  One would find the intro too long, others not.  ;D ;D 

So in the end you are on your own making your own calls. Reviews can sometimes help but then we are talking trends, not individuals.

 
Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart
My land's only borders lie around my heart


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #57 on: November 18, 2017, 11:38:23
Well @Jambrains, the point is @Levander found the review harsh and then in turn made the point that these kinds of reviews might discourage people from taking part in the kitchen. So people do have different levels of sensitivity to criticism, and we need to aware of that if we are bothering to comment on their songs. I agree, however,  that the review of @M57's certainly has some constructive points in it, but it was his comeback reply that made me react to him. He says to Levander:

"Yeah, Sorry - I realize as I post these that it's pretty tough language, but I reserve that for people who are, A) delusional and need a dose of truth, or B) People who are on the right track and don't need things sugar coated"

That sounded too blunt to me and I thought who does this guy think he is? That's a very superior and condescending thing to say, in my view. I'm with @Bill from November Sound on this. If people want doses of truth delivered bluntly,  they should pay their $25 and go to the professional review farms. On here we should be supportive, caring even of each others work. But again, that's all subjective. and maybe I am delusional after all!

Oh BTW thanks @Leonard Scaper and @Mar T. for the thumbs up on my own review style, much appreciated.


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #58 on: November 18, 2017, 11:43:37
You all pulled the plug on Mr57's friend Hobosage pretty quickly when he was dishing out his "real world" criticism. Meanwhile, we may have just lost another member.

As I recall, Hobosage was a bit combative. I think that is where the line got drawn. I don't think @M57 will be gone.....I surely hope not as his knowledgeable perspective would be missed. I think he's got thick enough skin to deal with this little discussion of critique technique.  ;)

Hey Mark.....remember my very first critical post here? It was a detailed and specific critique of your tune. You handled that perfectly and even dished it back out to me in the song I had up as we understood each other right off the bat. That's how things work here...for the most part.

I agree with @Jambrains that these reviews are subjective opinions. The tricky part is knowing how far to go with each one relative to the person we are reviewing. I have done the $25 review and they can be pretty impersonal...which is what I wanted then. Here at The Kitchen we make it a little more personal, right? That means we get to know each other and learn to tailor our reviews and critiques to the individual.

 8)

and maybe I am delusional after all!

I think you are....but in the best of ways.   ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


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Re: How do we provide helpful feedback to each other?
Reply #59 on: November 18, 2017, 11:49:03
I'm inclined to agree with @Jambrains on this one, although that isn't as simple as saying I think Mark's critique is a shining example of how we should review each others work.

Mark (M57) is uncompromising in the way he responds to people on this forum, and I think he knows his stuff which means the advice he gives is of value, as JB points out, he did qualify his statement, and said what he liked, and stated it was his opinion.  As things stand there, it's hard to be negative about the critique given.  I think the issue revolves around Mark's statement that he felt the lines were cliched, he could have pulled the punch there a bit I feel, but that's not his style I suppose. 

I think we all want our fellow Kitchenauts to have a fun time here, and we hate to lose active and wonderful songwriters (I sincerely hope that doesn't happen here).  But on the other hand, we are a collection of humans, with different idiosyncrasies, and there's going to be differences of opinion from time to time...I think the best I can do is try to set a good example of how I'd like others to review my work by giving those sort of reviews myself, and at least try to be mindful of how the recipient of the message will feel (as @MichaelA suggests).



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