• Should we split the Finished Work section into Finished Songs and Finished Productions?
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« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 01:16:06 by Mar T. »
Hi all,

Last year we had a nice debate going on in this topic:

https://www.songwriter-forum-kitchen.com/forum/life/vision-the-2016-kitchen/

There were 2 subjects that were clearly in need of further discussion:
1. Should we split the Finished Work section into Finished Songs and Finished Productions?
2. How do we provide helpful feedback to each other? (https://www.songwriter-forum-kitchen.com/forum/life/how-do-we-provide-helpful-feedback-to-each-other/)

This thread is about the 1st subject.

Should we split the Finished Work section into Finished Songs and Finished Productions?

A few quotes from the vision thread (click the quotes to see the full version of the quote in it's original context)

Quotes about 'the differtent perspectives' we have on the concept 'song'

...What I'm missing sometimes that new songs are not or not enough reviewed in consideration of it's songwriting skills.
I mean you can take a poor song, make a very good production with different instruments and the judges will praise the wonderful song which is songwriting wise average. Another song will get criticized cause of his poor production but is may a great song songwriting wise.
Thats a mess.
Wow Alexander, that's a great point btw! Maybe we should split 'finished work' in two categories: 'Finished songwritings' and 'Full productions'... I think we all listen with different ears. And I have to admit I really listen to production as part of a song. Maybe I am alone, but that's not the point. In terms of definition you're completely right: songwriting is about writing songs, not about the final production. But some kitcheners have enough skills to also make huge sounding productions and I wouldn't want to spoil their fun... Does that make sense?
Marti, no problem with a good production but for me it is never the main thing. May we have to try to get a bit back to the roots. I feel we can manage to make our Kitchen more unique than other forums with a more songwriting focus. To tell it with Dutchs words: Believe me! ;D ;D
All in all it is worth to think about splitting the finished song section in two as you suggested.

...As one of the more "production-challenged" members here I completely agree with this.. I have such limited skills (as you'll discover from my car crash arrangement / production on my Xmas song) that I'm almost wary of posting for that reason.. but I should really just post vocal and piano or vocal and guitar...

...During the past few years I have been learning about and learning to appreciate the different levels and aspects of a song. Ie concept/ music/ instruments/ vocal/ melody/ rhythm/ mixing/ mastering etc. In an ideal world and in cases where the songwriter has full knowledge of all the different aspects, I believe that it makes sense to approach the song as a whole and envisage all the aspects as a whole from start to finish including production so I get Jambrains? view. ((Note: And personally I would love to achieve that point someday - as I am still in the early process of exploring and learning about all these different realms. Unfortunately not everyone is as lucky / had the right possibilities/ opportunities to learn and improve and so we all have different levels of capability at this point in time. Hopefully we will get more opportunities to help eachother and see eachother improve with time :) ))...

...To me the argument to look at the "song" separated from the arrangement/instrumentation/mix etc makes just as much sense as judging a 5 course meal solely by reading the recipe..... ;D...

So..
Should we split the Finished Work section into Finished Songs and Finished Productions?

Please reply wit 'YES' or 'NO' and feel free to add (extra) argumentation for your choice (not mandatory)!

Thanks fellows!
MM

I'm proud of this track, check it out! https://soundcloud.com/martimedia/dreams


It's funny, I had been completely leaning towards a yes in this but now that I've thought about it more, I'm more in favour now of NOT splitting but the contributor noting overtly what they want feedback on.

I think a split would work against the inclusiveness of the community and surely those more production savvy can still comment on lean arrangements so I'm a NO with qualification that the poster should state what feedback they're looking for:

Song
Production
Both.

And the reviewers should take that into account when reviewing.

Z


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It was not my first wish to split the Finished Song section in too and after I have thought about i came to the same result as Zedd better not to do. What we should is find a more unfocused way to review a song or a way more focused on the songwriting. I mean both sides are claimed. As a poster of a song I don't have to get offended when someone is writing some criticism. It's always a question of personal taste also the reviewer forgot to say that. But to hear what can be better in the opinion of the others will help to get a better songwriter.
And as a reviewer we have to try to work out a bit more if the song songwriting wise (rhyme scheme, length of syllables, the elaboration of the main theme, the chorus and verse in comparison, the hook a.s.o.) is good or not.
But I'm open for other arguments. ;) ;D


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I entirely agree that quite often we get carried away commenting on arrangement and production of a song, rather than the song itself (or the writing of it).
And I guess it can be annoying to read criticism about the compression level of a snare drum, when one was much more interested in whether or not the chord sequence in the chorus 'works' for the audience...
After all, this forum is about "Songwriters in the Kitchen", and not "Producers in the Kitchen".

Still, I'm also going with a NO on splitting the review section, for the very reason that Zedd has already stated:
the poster should state what feedback they're looking for

I think comments on both songwriting and production can be (and have been) immensely helpful.
IMHO we should let it be up to the original poster to state if they prefer one or the other or both.
As long as we take our time to properly read the first post of the thread before we comment, this should make everyone happy  :)


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As long as we take our time to properly read the first post of the thread before we comment, this should make everyone happy  :)
Very good point. ;)


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I agree with all here, it should be stated by the original poster which aspects of their new song they want critique on.  :)

I know I pointed out in the Vision 2016 thread the distinctions between conceiving, creating and completing songs, but that was to go some way to explain why I don't always comment on songs, when the focus seems to be on production.   ;)

One thing that I'd really like, is for the posters of songs to include the chords with the lyrics (or separately, if necessary), if saves me having to noodle to work them out.  Surely everyone knows what chords they're playing?  :o


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For me the current division between WIP and Finished works just fine. As long as I want input on the song itself (lyrics, chords etc) I keep it in WIP. Once I'm satisfied with the song and have arrangement/instrumentation/production in place I post it in the Finished section mainly to get feedback on these aspects. At that point I'm unlikely to make any changes to the song as such unless some divine insight hit me (though such feedback is always welcome).
However, a split would be just fine as well, I'll simply use Finished Productions and ignore Finished Songs.
And btw, no, I don't always know what chords I'm playing.  :-[
Once in a while I try to figure it out by entering the notes I play in some chord finder app but then I usually just get confused by all the 9ths, sus and other weird stuff that comes out  ;D
But then again that does not matter much to me, if it sounds good it is good, no matter what the actual chords are.
Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart
My land's only borders lie around my heart


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I was being a bit very tongue in cheek there Jambrains... ;) I know that sometimes people don't know what chords they're playing, it's particularly a thing with guitarists, I know because for many years I was a guitarist who wasn't sure what chords I was playing.  :-[

Years later, I revisited the songs I used to play, and still haven't completely sussed out how all of them work harmonically, although I'm a lot more sure now.  :D

But maybe that's somewhere where I can help here?  If a poster isn't sure what a chord actually is I might be able to help them out...?  :) 

Which app did you use?  I quite like this one - https://jguitar.com/chordname?string5=0&string4=1&string3=2&string2=2&string1=0&string0=2 ... In this example the true chord (I'd say) is the second one down, although the others are valid, the first one just being a more 'jazzy' interpretation of the second.  Because the chords are shareable  by the URL, this could be used for guitarists who aren't sure about a chord, maybe?  :D


« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 14:24:23 by crystalsuzy »
I guess I vote NO, to the original question in this thread :)

If someone was inspired to post a song, in its fragile original state...before production, along with its produced state, that might be an interesting comparison :o

I personally love the challenge of trying to produce a song, but not all songs, because some sound better left raw :)

It is a songwriting forum, but I think it should include production as well, for those who enjoy doing it, and have spent hours learning how ;) but it's

not for everybody :P  I'm still learning and have a long way to go, and I really appreciate all the help I've had, from other forum members  ;D

PS Just wondering why you would need the chords to someones song Jim? Do you play along with it? It's just something I never thought of doing :o



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Quick reply CS, I think Jim is offering help in the chord-progression department. He seems to have a lot of knowledge about music theory and if I'm right I'd definately encourage everybody to post the chords as well (maybe already in the WIP phase, cause changing chords after producing is a bit difficult ;-) )
MM


Quick reply CS, I think Jim is offering help in the chord-progression department. He seems to have a lot of knowledge about music theory and if I'm right I'd definately encourage everybody to post the chords as well (maybe already in the WIP phase, cause changing chords after producing is a bit difficult ;-) )
MM

Awesome :) Thanks M, I guess I missed that somehow  :P ::)


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Thanks MM!  Yes I was offering to help out, I might be able to spot a "harmonic solution", to those little problems like wanting to give the song a bit more oomph, or suggest different chords to facilitate a key change (for instance).  :D  Plus, I do like to try to play them myself, just for the practice.  ;)

But yes, this would have to be in the WIP thread, as you have a good point about post-production chord changes!  ;D ;D ;D ;D


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I agree pretty much with Zedd, Michael and Fisch regarding this topic and agree with  the 'NO' answer on the basis of the reasons that have already been brought up.

@ Jim: It sounds really interesting to be knowledgable about 'chord progressions' and 'harmonic solutions'. I always wished to learn more about that side of a song. Chords / notes/ melodies always come randomly to my mind. It must be great to be able to trace the more logical chord patterns :)
Rachel  ::Rachel::
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Thanks MM!  Yes I was offering to help out, I might be able to spot a "harmonic solution", to those little problems like wanting to give the song a bit more oomph, or suggest different chords to facilitate a key change (for instance).  :D  Plus, I do like to try to play them myself, just for the practice.  ;)

But yes, this would have to be in the WIP thread, as you have a good point about post-production chord changes!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thanks so much for this offer Jim :) Your knowledge is invaluable  :) You will no doubt, become a very popular guy on this forum  ;D


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@ Jim: It sounds really interesting to be knowledgable about 'chord progressions' and 'harmonic solutions'. I always wished to learn more about that side of a song. Chords / notes/ melodies always come randomly to my mind. It must be great to be able to trace the more logical chord patterns :)

Hi Rachel, that's nice of you to say. ;D  In a way, I'm kind of jealous of you being able to produce those wonderful songs without that knowledge.  8) I suppose you can't have them both though. :-\

Thanks so much for this offer Jim :) Your knowledge is invaluable  :) You will no doubt, become a very popular guy on this forum  ;D


Thank you too CS, I like to help out, then people might return the favour, and I'm only sharing what I know already, so it's easy.  :D

Not too popular I hope, though, keep running out of time for other things...  :P



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