• So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 00:16:28 by MrBouzouki »
I want to try and stimulate some debate with this. It's a personal query and not a formal admin one hence posting in here. Getting no response at all sort of proves what I've worried about for a while.


I posted up my personal view about our challenges and got an interesting response.

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Edit: I want add, that i  even find it incredible stupid  if members don't take the chance and don't take action within any kitchen activities ! Its stupid just to consume this without bring in anything. Every member who don't act is to blame for slow death of the forum cultures.

Despite never entering competitions due to my style of music creation and the fact that I'm as much interested in instrumentals as anything, I still enjoy watching people create from a given brief.

Challenges aside, @Mo has touched on a topic that really worries me as I've seen the death of online forums over time, with them being replaced by social media alternatives. I love this place and like it because it isn't social media, it feels different somehow.

Unfortunately, typical responses to NOT using forums and particularly this forum might be :-

I don't have time as I'm busy with other things in life
It's another platform to use
It doesn't promote my music as well
Forums are too much of a clique
There are better ways to communicate nowadays
Needs more effort that I am prepared to give
I just need to launch my music career
The music on the forum is too old fashioned/niche for my liking
I can't be bothered to reach out, I'm just a consumer really
I'm very shy of being criticized so I just lurk
I never post my music as I just get praise without any criticism so I can never improve
I'm not in a phase of doing music at present
It's boring nowadays, not enough people contribute

These are just some hypothetical answers to the question buy I'm sure some of them are true.

For my part, I try to get on the forum as often as I can. I do tend to drift at times and then play catch-up with responses. I tried entering a competition when I first joined, managed to write some lyrics but never submitted a finished product as I work very slowly. Instead I try and give some feedback on songs and raise awareness of useful songwriting material / techniques , I love sharing info. That's probably my strength. I value the Kitchen for it's diverse mixture of people and feel it's slower pace and nature works for me.

So over to you ... time to feedback...

Are we just trying to hold back the sea of inevitable demise with The Kitchen ?

Are we an anachronistic legacy of how we used to communicate ?

Can you give a paragraph of what you think about the Kitchen and what you bring to it ?

Is anybody out there ?
"Love and Life is all about connections"


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #1 on: November 09, 2020, 12:45:53
What an excellent initiative @MrBouzouki
I hope you don’t mind if I mull this question over. There are some aspects involved that need clear but subtle arguments. And to do it right, in English, needs some serious thinking.
But before all reasons and reasoning, I would really hate to see the Kitchen go under.
To be continued.....
Kind regards, Gus


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #2 on: November 09, 2020, 13:00:04
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 13:01:56 by Mo »
I really look forward what responses you'll get with your initiative!  :) ::thumb::

From my side i just want make clear, that i don't see yet the kitchen will go under!  I more see the opposite of that. There is so incredibal potential in it to steer the ship as it is as a kind of caring about music culture despite the chance promote songs, persons, ideas and creativity to more people that are not songwriters but listeners.
But this won't happen if members not get conscious about that it needs  ( just) a little power from everybody. Doesn't take very much time or special skills, just deliver a piece to the whole.
I'm not talking about the persons who already does so like the Admin & Mod stuff and those who do answers and reviews from time to time and/or even provides very good music!  :D

A Forum never can be replaced by nowadays hyped social media plattforms, for multiple reasons I don't want write them all. The newer plattforms just make it easy to be lazy  and are more like soap bubbles of illusions while a forum has substance and much more  (huge) power in a longer run make ppl reach a personal and maybe a common  desired aim.


Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #3 on: November 09, 2020, 21:18:18
Well, @MrBouzouki  I've been member here for a few years and I have seen people come and go and have never been sure of the reason. It's quite sad in a way, because I grow fond of people and when they stop coming around I miss them.

I try to listen to every song posted by members. If I feel someone didn't get enough, or any comments, I'll comment just to let them know someone listened. As far as valuable feedback, I'm your worst nightmare. I'm the one who listens to your song on cheap headphones on my cell phone (handy as the Germans call them) - after you spent all that time mixing to get your sound perfect.

I don't enter every competition, but I do try to listen and vote regardless. I feel it's a good way to support what's going on here. I'm certainly not a professional and my opinion on music and $10 USD will get you a tall coffee at Starbucks.  Personally I get enough satisfaction when somebody listens to a song on my SoundCloud and leaves a heart.

I don't post a song here because I'm not technical and to me the reason to post is to make a song better. Since I have no clue on the tech. I'm not really able to make corrections.   I do have different versions of the same songs.

Anyways I hope people stay around or drop a note from time to time. Vote early and often.
Vince


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #4 on: November 10, 2020, 09:51:00
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 10:15:25 by LePlongeur »
Short overview:
I put my music on the backburner for the time our children needed our undivided attention. And I’m glad I did that.
Some 12/13 years ago I reclaimed my ‘rights’, started writing/recording again in ernest and became part of a Dutch/Flemish guitarist forum. Despite not being a guitarist.

My views/listens count varies from 240 for a simple announcement and 11.200 for some things with a recurring nature. That forum, like all others, suffers from deminishing activities or active people.
Katrina an Monty’s Blather originally posted in the Kitchen, were re-posted on the guitarists’ forum and did some 3000/3500 views and listens. So yes, it is definately a larger forum.

I was involved in ‘MakeYourSongCount’, a Dutch based writers forum. It never quite took off and after a year the owner pulled the plug out of the bath.

So when I joined the Kitchen I was seriously committed to be active and stay active.
I feel very much at home here, marvel at the diversity of people and their work.

I don’t have exagerated ambitions for my music. To listen and ‘talk’ about what is suggested or posted (in short the social side of the Kitchen) is a warm bath for me.
If I can do a excentric collab, that would be wonderful. And a bit difficult due to the museum worthy gear I record with. But doable with some improvisation.

I’ve seen a couple of very pleasant and talented leave the Kitchen because they lacked a more professional approach and support. It’s a myth that professional equals cut throat opinions.

I think we, writers, are a sloppy lot. We think it’s OK to passively wait for inspiration and to ask for support without a hint of the kind of support we are looking for. Most of the music is posted without an indication what our intentions are with the piece. I am always glad if I can be  of any help, but that I have to ask for what it is the collegues are looking for strikes me as funny.

Same for challenges.
The last one, Katze was #1
separated by 1 point from #2
separated by 1 point form #3
separated by 1 point form 3 or 4 #’s 4.

I recognise and value the idea to give everyone the feeling that they are happy, but I think there are a lot of people who don’t take this seriously. Sky Radio is the feel good station; this is a writer’s forum. Collegues in the true sense of the word.
If i could join out of competition I would probably, but that I am seriously nudged several time to join ‘challenges’ is a bit much. This was the reason I brought it up in the first place.

So, in short @MrBouzouki:
-   I love to ‘talk’ in the Kitchen
-       I love to listen to the music other Kitcheners post
-   I like to post some ideas, some lyrics, some music now and then
-   If there’s a possibility to support others, I would like that
-   If i can vent some against the grain ideas like ‘Prompt writing’? great
-   A light and playful (not perse about nothing) kind of thing giving room to others
-   A collaboration now and then? Great

And thank you @Mo and MrB for stirring up the discussion. Let’s celebrate our creativity. It doesn’t make us better than others; it makes us richer.
Kind regards, Gus


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #5 on: November 13, 2020, 12:40:41
Some great comments here already. Thanks to @Mo , @Vince, @LePlongeur to give some feedback.

It's good to get a feel for why people come here, browse the forums, comment and post.

@Mo - thanks for getting me to ask about this topic in an informal way, just me, MrB, wanting to know what's going on and how things ebb and flow like they do.  I agree with you that a forum has 'more substance', although at times it seems like a thing of days gone by. I think I said a while ago now the The Kitchen is like an oasis in a desert, we have the people who live around it and travellers who drop in for a while before they continue their journey. I think it's unlikely the water will disappear anytime soon ;-)

@Vince, personally, I feel you should post your songs here as 'reviewing' isn't just about getting something better, or refining it. For me, it's all about hearing what others are creating. Let's have your songs posted so we make sure we have a chance to listen. :-) Your 'worst nightmare' listening  is just what people need as probably 60-70 % of people consume music like this nowadays, or in mono, or with shared earbuds. '
It's important to understand what you hear, particularly so for anybody wanting to be commercially successful.

@LePlongeur it was no surprise to me you had some views on this topic. As a 'regular' (you must live near the oasis) you are part of the social infrastructure of the Kitchen, from greeting people when they arrive, to commenting on music, to giving feedback on posts in general. It's always nice to find out if people, I wouldn't say 'approve', but perhaps 'get', what you are trying to do with something you created.

I've always valued people like yourself and @Leonard Scaper (who I miss greatly for his input) who are prepared to feedback on their 'feelings' about a piece. That my friend acts to inspire, guide and even warn you, if what you are creating makes sense to others.

But what if you don't normally post ?

Is there anybody out there who feels it's hard to post their own creations, either through fear of rejection, or fear of not knowing what people 'really think' about their music, or feel we are not the hardened professionals that inhabit many online forums ?

On the hardened professionals question, I guess we are not going to be that cut and thrust, for my part, music should be about the joy of creating something, your vision, not how many units you can sell. How can you advance your career. However, a forum like this can be a good first step for airing a new project and getting some varied and experienced listeners to give some feedback, if you are upfront about what you want. As @LePlongeur said, what do people want ? I can go from gentle encouragement to that beat at 1:45 secs is off, that singing is flat, if they want critical listening I can be critical. ;-)

I'm hopeful I get some more replies to this post, so I'm going to keep trying to prompt people for feedback. I really want to understand what people want so hopefully I can help play my part in delivering it. Mods and Mins, you too need to be part of this, but not with any hat on, just as yourselves as music lovers and music creators.


Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #6 on: November 13, 2020, 14:01:59
I have always felt a strong connection with home grown music. Of course, I have grown a few tunes myself and having a place for them to be heard is crucial to their development.

I have posted songs in a number of places over the years but The Kitchen stands out as the best fit for my musical style and taste.

I have been a bit off of late, however. This has been an odd year, for a number of reasons, and my muse seems to slipped back into the depths a bit to wait for these various storms to blow over. Perhaps, after all these years of writing, I'll finally find myself on the open ground under an empty sky with all of my music already out there on the wind. 

I know there will always be excellent homemade music to listen to right here, though.  8)
"The main thing is to have a gutsy approach....but use your head." Julia Child

 "In a world of robotic conformity, the only originality left in music is the imperfections" Eric Craptone

"Special thanks to Steve Gleason for making me who I am today." Leonard Scaper

Lenny's Tunes: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=540680

https://soundcloud.com/vincentgleason


Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #7 on: November 13, 2020, 22:21:06
Hi @MrBouzouki  ..... you may have noticed I don't post my songs up for review ...... unless I absolutely have to for a kitchen challenge.   :)
Bill
Songwriter, Keyboards, Arranger, Producer & Engineer for November Sound

November Sound is based on the Mother, Father & Son musical trio of Melissa, Bill & Will. I'm the father so anything I post will have my wife singing and/or my son playing percussion.


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #8 on: November 14, 2020, 01:02:51
Cheers @Bill from November Sound that's fine. May I ask why ?

It says "Post your song in any state of the songwriter process" so why can't Kitchen Members hear your stuff just for the joy of listening to it.
I often feel that posting stuff might inspire others to set off down a new track, or introduce a sound they want to try, or a style to try and emulate.
Maybe you are selling us short by not posting your excellent music to inspire us ?
 
My question though goes much deeper than Songs for Review though. 

Do you feel that forums are still relevant in 2020?

What so you feel you bring to the forum,as an individual not with any hat on ?

What do you feel about the social aspects of the Kitchen, what would you like to change ?

Give us more @Bill from November Sound  ;D ;D ;D






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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #9 on: November 14, 2020, 01:13:34
Ahhh @Leonard Scaper .... it was nice to hear your voice on the wind as it whistled though the Kitchen .

:pompom: :pompom: :pompom:

Perhaps you are right, your songs are Legion. But hey,  what's wrong with posting a few of those old ones on here that people have never heard ?
Those gems covered in dust, which when you blow off that dust, still shine with the truth of a true songwriter.   ::thumb::

But wait, what's that I hear, the strum of some strings, the creak of that old porch chair ?

Maybe there is more to come after all ...  8) 8) 8)

Just remember, some things are sent to try us, but a friend in need can always be helped by friends that care.

 ::OSMAN:: ::OSMAN:: ::OSMAN::


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #10 on: November 14, 2020, 15:35:48
Yes, I agree. There’s so much more to the man.
I really hope there’s more to come, musically speaking.
But I do miss his comments and humor too.

Let’s not wait untill people have died to express these things @MrBouzouki
Kind regards, Gus




( @Leonard Scaper too)


Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #11 on: November 14, 2020, 17:25:45
So @MrBouzouki  for a while I actually quit the kitchen early on. I found the songs for review section to be completely useless for me. Everybody telling me how "they would do it" ..... the thing is I'm not them. My music goes through a committee to go out into the world.
"Posting songs earlier in the process" is not possible. I'm not a singer-songwriter. I wish I were but what would be the point?
People telling me to get a new singer or get a new drummer is, frankly, stupid.

Also, for new people:
This is NOT a place to promote your music! Most kitchenauts , with the exception of @oorlab and myself, literally follow almost no one. They subscribe to almost no one. They won't share your music. They won't buy your music. They won't subscribe to you. They won't follow you.
Is this a bad thing?
No, not at all.
They are willing to help you in other ways.  :)

Also my 2 cents:
There are plenty of song writing contests where you can pay $20, enter your song and get super detailed and harsh criticism. Do those if that's what you want! The idea that there are a bunch of industry professionals hanging out in the other forums ready to rip your song apart for free is a load of crap.  >:(  Anyone can pretend to be anyone online. Posers, I say.


Okay back to the story:
I was very disheartened by songs for review. It did nothing for me but make me annoyed.
I got to talking with @Dutchbeat and @Mar T. kind of independent of the kitchen and I came to realize how giving and caring the @Dutchbeat @Mar T. @Leonard Scaper @Mark Luto  crew really was. I just didn't really understand at first.
The idea of shaping a community around positivity and fun songwriting activity, the way @Mar T. really worked to help less experienced musicians and writers, the way @Leonard Scaper encouraged and supported everyone and the way @Dutchbeat made the place fun while recruiting new people kind of won me over.
I came back.
I spend most of my time in the cafe and other sections.
I've met incredible people! Made amazing friends that never would have happened without this place and once travel becomes a thing again I hope to meet more of them in person.

I've also tried to continue the mission of the kitchen in my own little corner of the world. I host "open mic" type events for songwriters and people who do music that's off the beaten path here locally. I know how difficult it is to get out there and now as NS develops a bit of leverage I use it to help others. People who aren't ready to do gigs yet, people who want to try out their own material but can't do that at gigs, people who can't get gigs due to the hindrance of societal and local politics, etc. , now have some opportunity in my little geographical area.

The kitchen has changed my life for the better.


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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #12 on: November 14, 2020, 18:14:23
I'm really enjoying this thread as we are getting to understand more about the community.

That is a good thing ehhhh @Dutchbeat:pompom: :pompom: :pompom: :pompom:

@Bill from November Sound  ... I seem to remember some people telling you to effectively change you wife, fire you son, often people who just shot from the hip without reading what November Sound was all about. I'm glad you didn't leave and decided to stay  ;D ;D ;D

I wondered why I needed to go on SoundCloud to hear your stuff. But hey, why not  post it here as well, saying "This is our latest finished original or cover song ... enjoy" ? 

It says "Post your song in any state of the songwriter process"  so completed/finished is an option and then we get to listenen to your music on here. :-)

I have always thought 'Songs for Review' is far more than just WIP posts, although it can be.

Maybe the "Songs for Review title " puts people off from posting their music, just for the chance for other people to listen to to it ?

The word 'Review' suggests critique or a composing journey to some people where feedback helps you perhaps reach higher with your project.

For any creative person, some 'creations' will be better than others, but you can almost guarantee somebody will get something out of it.

Good point re the promotion angle by the way, this is a forum dedicated to the 'craft of songwriting'  .

More food for thought, come on lets have some more from other members.

 ::OSMAN:: ::OSMAN:: ::OSMAN::

 





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Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #13 on: November 14, 2020, 19:17:04
Great thread @MrBouzouki and @allothers

The things i like most of being on this forum are :
the music collabs that come from it once in a while, always great fun to make a track together with a like minded Kitchenaut  :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

and to have learned to know many of the regular Kitchenauts better, the fun and interesting contacts we have via the forum or Zoom (and even in real life sometimes)  ::thumb:: ::thumb:: ::thumb:: ::thumb:: ::thumb:: ::thumb::
me, myself, and Pie


Re: So why do you use and how do you interact with the kitchen ?
Reply #14 on: November 14, 2020, 20:16:30
Oh I've fired my son probably 17 times at this point @MrBouzouki @Dutchbeat;D
He keeps coming back! You know how drummers are .....  ::Dutch::



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