• Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
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Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 23:34:43
I'm pretty sure you actually do @Leonard Scaper .... you probably just don't call them by the official name.  :)
You must play some things like a G with a C in the bass or something? .... that could be called a C Major 9th  :ok: 
Bill
Songwriter, Keyboards, Arranger, Producer & Engineer for November Sound

November Sound is based on the Mother, Father & Son musical trio of Melissa, Bill & Will. I'm the father so anything I post will have my wife singing and/or my son playing percussion.


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #16 on: January 27, 2020, 01:23:10
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 02:05:50 by M57 »
That's interesting @M57
Now if the bass player will not be soloing on your track will you still write out
something like CMaj6add9#11 or is C enough?

For something like that in one of my songs I'd be tempted to say C lyd.. pretty much covers all the bases and respects the fact that the bass player might want to use some ornamentation.

Quote
I would think you'd have to indicate if a chord is C7 or C7b9 to suggest tonicization of major or minor ... but you wouldn't need to say C9 would you? I mean C7 should be adequate, right?

I suppose that for "songs," where you don't want the bass player to get too fancy, writing C might force the issue, while writing C7 implies that it's OK for the bassist to play a Bb.  But then writing C7 also implies dominant motion which informs the way a player hears the larger work, however imperceptibly.  Of course, things like inversions are very important to a good bass player unless you want them to play nothing but that note. So chords like Eb/G and Bb/F are definitely required notations.

Funny, I've never given this topic that much thought because I've always just considered including more detailed information about a chord as a matter of professional courtesy.  What's the harm in giving it to them? Players that don't understand (or don't care) seem to be very capable of ignoring all the #$&^ that follows the letter name of the chord, right?



Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #17 on: January 27, 2020, 02:18:25
Quote
Funny, I've never given this topic that much thought because I've always just considered including more detailed information about a chord as a matter of professional courtesy.  What's the harm in giving it to them? Players that don't understand (or don't care) seem to be very capable of ignoring all the #$&^ that follows the letter name of the chord, right?

That's a good point.

I've been thinking about for two reasons:

1. Using an ipad at gigs and trying to simplify the amount I need to look at. If it is in fact one of the few I actually need to.

2. A few months back my friend died and the family gave me a few of his old fakebooks. When I got into playing reading them I noticed how crowded they'd look when there was every suffix, inversion, etc for each and every chord symbol.  Also, some of the chord qualities aren't really the way we'd play them in today's world anyway.


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #18 on: January 27, 2020, 12:20:43
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:25:13 by M57 »

 I have never played a complicated chord in my life.  My skill set is pretty much relegated to "cowboy chords" on the guitar.  ;)

Not so.  I've listened to a lot of your music, and I believe notating it would be be quite challenging.  You seem to play a lot of chords with no thirds, so it's hard to determine if the chord is major or minor. I think you'd be surprised to see transcriptions of some of your songs. A lot of the time it's what you don't play that makes it complicated. Also your bass lines tend to imply that you use inversions. As a result, chords like Csus (add 9)/G and Csus7/F and C (no 3rd) are not uncommon in your music.


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Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #19 on: January 27, 2020, 19:25:05
You seem to play a lot of chords with no thirds, so it's hard to determine if the chord is major or minor. I think you'd be surprised to see transcriptions of some of your songs. A lot of the time it's what you don't play that makes it complicated. Also your bass lines tend to imply that you use inversions. As a result, chords like Csus (add 9)/G and Csus7/F and C (no 3rd) are not uncommon in your music.

I am fascinated to hear that you are hearing all of that in my playing, Mark. After @Bill from November Sound 's comment I have been pondering this question as it applied to my playing style. Perhaps I have developed chording patterns that go to those places over the years from a more roundabout place of hearing them in the music I listen to.

I could not play a Csus/F if my life depended on it right now but I do see your point about what I don't play. Often times I'll just have one finger on the fretboard and I just naturally get the right strings going at the right time.

Your observation has me looking up chord charts and comparing them to what I play. Thanks for that.   :)
"The main thing is to have a gutsy approach....but use your head." Julia Child

 "In a world of robotic conformity, the only originality left in music is the imperfections" Eric Craptone

"Special thanks to Steve Gleason for making me who I am today." Leonard Scaper

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Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #20 on: January 28, 2020, 17:47:50
Interesting discussion.  I rarely use complicated chords.  IU don't care for the sound of most of them.  I write a lot of music but I usually stick to Major and Minor triads.  I occasionally add a 7th, 9th or 11th.  Sometimes I will start with the triad and then add the extensions after the first hit.  I find I do not care for the sound of most extensions.  Because of this I use them sparingly.   When I get jazzy I prefer to go into different times (3/4, 5/4, 7/4).  I do like to change the key for a measure.  Those are my thoughts on this topic.


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #21 on: January 30, 2020, 23:05:52
That's very cool @ProgRockDan ….. you do have some tracks out there with crazy cool time changes!  :thumbsup:
I you don't mind continuing this conversation: how do you notate those?
Do you write actual sheet music or lead sheets? Time charts with lyrics? Lyric sheets with chords and occasional time signature cues written in? 
I'm always curious about stuff like this. … what the musician/writer looks at on paper, ipad, computer screen, etc.


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #22 on: January 31, 2020, 05:37:58
@Bill from November Sound  I have written over 1,000 songs and some are lost forever because I did not notate anything on them.  We have had a a couple of people cover our songs and I have helped them with notations.  Currently I am doing two things to be able to play my songs in the future (if I should have such a desire).   First I try to always make a midi version of my song.  I  do this so I can recover  the chords, timing etc. in the future.  I may use these midid in the song or I may keep them just to aid my memory if I should ever want to come back to a song.  I also do a verbal description of the song.  I talk into my microphone while it is playing.  I describe the chords, verses, choruses and other major aspects of it.  I have been trying to encourage covers of my songs (and the Dan X2 songs).   As I said earlier, I have only had two people cover any of our songs.  They both changed them about to make the song theirs.  It was a great pleasure hearing the changes they made.


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #23 on: January 31, 2020, 13:41:03
@Bill from November Sound - this is such an interesting discussion! :) I've always been intrigued by theory v practice, and wish to learn more! I'm still a beginner in music theory (ca. Grade 2 theory at the moment) so I cant really give much input. However, I do often wonder about chords and what I'm actually singing or playing. I found your reply to @Leonard Scaper about the lack of 3rd extremely interesting!! :)
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Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #24 on: January 31, 2020, 22:03:08
Whoah @ProgRockDan  ... that's a wonderfully semi-modern approach. A midi track and or a narrated midi track recording?  Cool! :yes:

Ya know @Rachel_D  .... a lot of this has to do with time period/genre. Like it or not everyone sort of replicates a certain time period in their original creations.(at least that's what I hear).
While some might use the no 3rd approach, your music tends to veer more toward modern pop so even though you play more basic chords on the keyboard you use a more extensive harmonic vocabulary as part of the melodies you sing. So when you're singing a G over that F chord it is the 9th (2) or when you sing it over the Dm it is the 11th (4) .... you do that naturally because it is part of your vocabulary. Those add9 or add2 chords are a staple  of late 90's to modern pop .....    :)
Now here's the discussion though: we hear that in your music but if you wrote FMaj6 add9 would it just confuse people? Maybe we should just write F? 
 


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #25 on: January 31, 2020, 23:14:52
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 23:19:57 by M57 »
Whoah @ProgRockDan  ... that's a wonderfully semi-modern approach. A midi track and or a narrated midi track recording?  Cool! :yes:

Ya know @Rachel_D  .... a lot of this has to do with time period/genre. Like it or not everyone sort of replicates a certain time period in their original creations.(at least that's what I hear).
While some might use the no 3rd approach, your music tends to veer more toward modern pop so even though you play more basic chords on the keyboard you use a more extensive harmonic vocabulary as part of the melodies you sing. So when you're singing a G over that F chord it is the 9th (2) or when you sing it over the Dm it is the 11th (4) .... you do that naturally because it is part of your vocabulary. Those add9 or add2 chords are a staple  of late 90's to modern pop .....    :)
Now here's the discussion though: we hear that in your music but if you wrote FMaj6 add9 would it just confuse people? Maybe we should just write F?

I would be careful to make the distinction between what is melodic and what is harmonic, or in this case, what is played and what is sung. If I were to play an F triad and sing the 9th, I would not notate it as Fadd9.   The information in the chord is only there for the musicians for whom it is relevant.  If I played an F triad (and sang the 9th, decided to  write F add 9 in my music, then came across the transcription years later having completely forgotten the song I would incorrectly play F add 9.  If you want to hear anF 6/9 played by the accompanist, by all means write F 6/9.

As far as confusing people is concerned, no musician I've ever met was confused by F$%&%*, let alone complain about it ..and I've worked with many good musicians who have don't have a lot of traditional theoretical training.   They simply ignore what they don't understand.  No harm, no foul.


Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #26 on: February 01, 2020, 03:04:09
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 03:05:47 by Bill from November Sound »
That's a good point as well. Best to just write F  :ok:
Btw - I never thought anyone would complain @M57  .... to me it is just an interesting thing to think about and discuss.

When it comes to notation I'm sure we've all seen a lot!  :) 

I've found some older lead sheet/fakebooks where it is like someone analyzed every note a la undergrad tonal harmony and it gets a little weird. I suppose when writing an actual lead sheet one could go that way .... to explain the G in the melody , I guess.  :-\  .... but they probably shouldn't. If just chords and words then, like you said, just the F chord is good. @ProgRockDan 's talk about writing so much that wasn't notated has me thinking: if the song was lost but found and returned to 20 years later then it might be difficult to remember how it all works without the suffixes included even if not expressly played. 

When I was accompanying for school cabaret stuff the 70's to 90's broadway music books would have chords written like Ab2 (instead of 9 ) all the time. I'd also occasionally see chords written like G5 to represent chords with no thirds.  ( I wouldn't complain though  ;) )
These Ab2 kind of chords used to sound so "music theatre" to me but now they seem more common in modern pop voicings.
 


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Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #27 on: February 03, 2020, 14:39:10
Here's a great chord for all your song sheets. I don't know why we don't we use it more?  :lol:

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Re: Complicated Chords ..... and writing or notating them
Reply #28 on: February 03, 2020, 15:54:12
Well I'm not sure if Liked this video, found it humorous, or it was a complete waste of time.  I guess it kept my interest.

quote author=Monty Cash Music link=topic=5969.msg64253#msg64253 date=1580737150]
Here's a great chord for all your song sheets. I don't know why we don't we use it more?  :lol:


[/quote]