• Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #15 on: July 18, 2018, 14:00:54
Quote
Giant Steps on the other hand, is a much more complicated beast, although I think that has root movement in alternating minor thirds and perfect fourths, but not fifths.
Hey @reidmoto I love chord progressions! Anyway, I just want to clarify that "Giant Steps" is analyzed as a descending cycle of Major Thirds .... the "minor third" cycle is a common misconception .... because there are minor thirds in the progression.....but you have to look at the secondary dominants...i.e. what each 7th chord is "tonicizing".

Of course @Bill from November Sound, you are right, I wrote that in a bit of hurry and foolishly was focused on the chord by chord progression rather than how the song shifts tonal centre (AKA key).  So that makes a bit more sense to anyone not familiar with this sort of thing, Giant Steps modulates (very rapidly) from B to G to Eb (then the reverse journey):

BMaj7 D7│GMaj7 B♭7│E♭Maj7│Am7 D7│GMaj7 B♭7│E♭Maj7 F♯7│BMaj7 (tonal centres shown in bold)

If we drew that out on the circle of fifths it looks like (arrows not quite right):

So we can see it spends its time buzzing around that triangle, where each tonal centre is a Major third apart from each other.

Mr Offensive on the other hand, uses a different musical idiom (diminished chord symmetry) to make its journey around the circle:

Em | G+ | D♯dim7 | G♯7 | C♯m | E+ | B♯dim7 | F7 | B♭m | D♭+ | Adim7 | D7 | Gm | B♭+ | F♯dim7 | B7 | Em (chorus)...

And that looks like the attachment, going around in a square, where the tonal centres are a Minor third apart. 

(I always have to end up having to explain myself to Bill, he's such a fusser about such things  :P)


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #16 on: July 18, 2018, 14:23:43
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 21:30:43 by Jim »
@Jim I forgot to add yes, I'm interested in this, "I wouldn't countenance not at least moving once clockwise round the circle of fifths to lift the chorus up, then maybe again for the bridge (although I usually go for something more exotic)...if you're interested I can expand."

Thanks for your kind words @reidmoto  :D

It took me a while to think of a song (of mine) where I'd done that, and then I realised I'd not only lost the leadsheet for the song but almost had lost the sheet music too! :o  So ended up recreating the leadsheet, by which time it was too late to reply last night.

(I know it probably seems like blatant self-advertising to use one's own songs as exemplars, but at least I know (i) I have the chords right and (ii) I can answer any questions as to chord selection etc.  :-[)

Anyway, Dolcelatte uses this technique for the chorus (but not for the bridge, which isn't really a bridge as they normally are), here it is:

Bbmaj7 |Gm7  |Ebmaj7  |Edim7 F7
   |Bbmaj7   Gm7      Ebmaj7         Edim7 F7
Our drifting floating ships pass the night by.
    Bbmaj7   Gm7      Ebmaj7      Edim7  C7
One timeless golden night sealing love's knot.

Fmaj7 Bbmaj7  Gm7      C7
    Until the sun will rise,
   Fmaj7    Bbmaj7   Em7b5
we have the night to us,
      Cm7     F7        Bbmaj7       
we'll dance before dawn comes.

Gm7  |Ebmaj7  |Edim7  F7
    |Bbmaj7   Gm7      Ebmaj7         Edim7 F7 
 Our drifting floating ships pass the night by.
Bbmaj7 |
Am7b5     B7           Bbmaj7
 When the blue morning comes,
    Ebmaj7    Edim7  F7 Bb
all that will remain is love.


(It's easier to play on the guitar if you shift everything up by a whole tone, btw)

The verse/start is clearly in Bb major, the F7 routes us back to Bb major at the end of line one, but then at the end of line two, there's a C7, which wants to resolve to F major (there's that clockwise movement round the circle)...the idea of doing that is to "lift up" the chorus, the melody is a bit higher too on average...then the chorus gets ready to Bb Major...in theory (and what I suggested) the bridge could be in C major (thus going "up" or "clockwise" again), but I decided to keep things in the Bb major zone (yeah, I know, break my own rules ::))   

Does that make sense?


Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #17 on: July 18, 2018, 14:33:58
Oh sorry @Jim .... I didn't mean to be a fusser  :)  >:D
I just didn't want any misinformation being spread about "Giant Steps". You know how it is.  ;) You didn't need to explain yourself....but it does make for a bit of fun doesn't it?

(I'm not that smart. I had to read about and really study that song to get through it. I originally thought minor thirds as most people do. That is just scratching the surface. Once I realized each individual chord wasn't as important as the tonal center that you're heading to - then I was actually able to play the song. )
Bill
Songwriter, Keyboards, Arranger, Producer & Engineer for November Sound

November Sound is based on the Mother, Father & Son musical trio of Melissa, Bill & Will. I'm the father so anything I post will have my wife singing and/or my son playing percussion.


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #18 on: July 18, 2018, 15:37:03
Oh sorry @Jim .... I didn't mean to be a fusser  :)  >:D
I just didn't want any misinformation being spread about "Giant Steps". You know how it is.  ;) You didn't need to explain yourself....but it does make for a bit of fun doesn't it?

I was only pulling your chain anyway buddy!  ;)  But I know what you mean about not tolerating disinformation about something like harmony, especially if you've put the graft in and know that the reality is something quite different... >:(  For example, those sites which people upload TAB files and claim to be the "correct" chords for songs when at best they are chords that don't sound too bad when you play along...Gershwin's Summertime is a great example of a million annoying incorrect interpretations (anyway I digress  :-[).

I bet you really dig Giant Steps, but for me it's a step too far into "too jazzy"...Kind of Blue is just right...but no further.  (I'm digressing again)


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #19 on: July 19, 2018, 20:29:20
@Jim I just saw your post, and thank you for taking the time to hunt for the leadsheet, then
put all this together.

Yes, I am following you, and played it on guitar in the key of C as you suggested, and it makes
sense to my ears and to my brain music theory wise.

Thank you again!

What do you do Jim? Are you a professional musician, conductor, music theory professor? Just curious
how you gained such mastery over music theory.

Reidmoto


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #20 on: July 19, 2018, 23:29:44
BTW @Jim and @Bill from November Sound, I wasn't trying to intentionally post misinformation here about
Giant Steps, it's just something I remembered from one of my harmony classes decades ago.

I agree with you both, if something is posted that is inaccurate, then a correction is in order  :).

I did some research, and while this PDF is comprehensive in the detail it goes into,
it is way over my head LOL!

http://danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf

Reidmoto


Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #21 on: July 20, 2018, 03:46:52
Hi @reidmoto . Thanks! I'm just fooling around a bit. @Jim and I like to write about music theory.  :) Usually nobody else does.  :) :D
I'm certain that I've read this. I believe it is the forward part of a book that contains numerous excercises regarding the use of those harmonic cycles. I know I have it somewhere. ........ I studied this quite a bit. 


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #22 on: July 20, 2018, 04:03:27
@Bill from November Sound I hear you, and I think this is one of the coolest threads in the Kitchen,
because it is about techniques I can actually use to improve my songs, and you and @Jim are such
ninjas with theory, and willing to share.

But it is crickets in here LOL!

Reidmoto


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #23 on: July 20, 2018, 04:12:17
@Jim where can I find "Dolcelatte?"


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #24 on: July 20, 2018, 12:15:44
@Jim I just saw your post, and thank you for taking the time to hunt for the leadsheet, then
put all this together.

Yes, I am following you, and played it on guitar in the key of C as you suggested, and it makes
sense to my ears and to my brain music theory wise.

Thank you again!

What do you do Jim? Are you a professional musician, conductor, music theory professor? Just curious
how you gained such mastery over music theory.

Reidmoto

No worries @reidmoto - I needed the leadsheet myself, thought I'd shared it here, but it turns out I'd just shared the score, and that was on the old database so that attachment wasn't there any more...normally I make sure I have copies of these things on Dropbox but for whatever reason I didn't (I do now  ;)).

I'm glad you played Dolcelatte (and took on board my hint to play in C then G), and got its little harmonic turns, it's a bit quaint but I like it...just wish I could find two good singers to perform it, but there you go.  :-\

I'm none of those things, but thank you for saying what you did  :D  I'm just an old bloke who is fascinated by how music works, and always want to improve my understanding.  I did do a music module as part of my degree I did recently which helped my understanding, but have moved on from there now...there's so much stuff out there these days, once you get comfortable with a concept, there are seemingly always things that can push you further forward.  The downside of this though, as I was saying to one of my colleagues yesterday, is I find it very hard to just listen to music without analysing it on at least some level...which can be a tad annoying, but I guess I'll live with it.  ;)

BTW @Jim and @Bill from November Sound, I wasn't trying to intentionally post misinformation here about
Giant Steps, it's just something I remembered from one of my harmony classes decades ago.

I agree with you both, if something is posted that is inaccurate, then a correction is in order  :).

I did some research, and while this PDF is comprehensive in the detail it goes into,
it is way over my head LOL!

http://danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf

Reidmoto

That's a great read about music theory...I'm going to read it more thoroughly later.  ;D

@Bill from November Sound I hear you, and I think this is one of the coolest threads in the Kitchen,
because it is about techniques I can actually use to improve my songs, and you and @Jim are such
ninjas with theory, and willing to share.

But it is crickets in here LOL!

Reidmoto

Sorry if I have contributed to the crickets by being AWOL.... :-[  Not sure I've been called a music theory ninja before...I quite like it.  :D

@Jim where can I find "Dolcelatte?"

There is a thread on here...but when I tried searching it (in the kitchen) it didn't seem to be able to follow the link it served up...although I could with Google.  Anyway...the one linked on there got improved a bit, and then I tried making an EDM version of it with limited success:

The improved "classical" version:

https://soundcloud.com/jim-clark-17/dolcelatte67mscz/s-P5XAi

The "EDM" version:

https://soundcloud.com/jim-clark-17/electro-dolcelatte

But obviously both of those are instrumentals, and as I said earlier, what I'd really like is for the melody to be sung (by a male/female duet)...the first one is 100% VST too, at least Electro-Dolcelatte has some performance in it (on keys and guitar).  Maybe one day it'll get done...

Hi @reidmoto . Thanks! I'm just fooling around a bit. @Jim and I like to write about music theory.  :) Usually nobody else does.  :) :D
I'm certain that I've read this. I believe it is the forward part of a book that contains numerous excercises regarding the use of those harmonic cycles. I know I have it somewhere. ........ I studied this quite a bit. 

Bill and I are quite happy burbling away about music theory, but as he observes, many others aren't....in fact we have been known to turn threads into ghost towns by uttering the dread phrase "tritone substitution", a bit like "Lord Voldemort" in the Harry Potter world.  :P

Oh, I've done it now  :-[


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #25 on: July 20, 2018, 16:00:27
@Jim thank you for your detailed answers again, and it's hard for me to believe that you're just some bloke interested in
music theory, since it is such a complex and arcane subject, in many ways. But good for you!

I did take a listen to both versions of Dolcelatte and it helped me to hear the changes better without
having to split my focus by having to play the guitar chords.

 LOL on clearing rooms by mentioning tritone subs! Quick question, in the key of C, a tritone sub would
be Db, with the notes Db, F, Ab, B. Is the reason the tritone sub works due to all those notes resolving
1/2 step to a C major chord? Db to C, F to E, Ab to G, and B to C..

BTW, you guys have inspired me to enroll in an online course on how to use chords in songs, and not just
the same ole, same ole....but breaking out of the 6 chord diatonic prison and opening up my songs. I ran into
it here, and I think one of you posted the link, so thank you:

Reidmoto



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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #26 on: July 20, 2018, 17:01:21
@Jim and @Bill from November Sound, I dug up my study materials that my teacher from the Grove School of Music,
used and I studied with him for over a year. I have forgotten most of it, but some of it stuck LOL.

Here are some screenshots, approximately 400 pages total:

http://prntscr.com/k8wzmt

http://prntscr.com/k8wzy1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fpzjs6fezcbnpc/IMG_2193.JPG?dl=0

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uc6c4e1uv1pc0x/IMG_2195.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjt529tih1jnkl3/IMG_2194.JPG?dl=0

If you guys would like a copy of it, I will get over to Staples when I have time,
make one copy, and send it to one of you. Then whoever I send it to, can do
the same and send it to the other.

Reidmoto





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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #27 on: July 20, 2018, 17:40:01
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 17:42:53 by Jim »
@Jim thank you for your detailed answers again, and it's hard for me to believe that you're just some bloke interested in
music theory, since it is such a complex and arcane subject, in many ways. But good for you!

I did take a listen to both versions of Dolcelatte and it helped me to hear the changes better without
having to split my focus by having to play the guitar chords.

 LOL on clearing rooms by mentioning tritone subs! Quick question, in the key of C, a tritone sub would
be Db, with the notes Db, F, Ab, B. Is the reason the tritone sub works due to all those notes resolving
1/2 step to a C major chord? Db to C, F to E, Ab to G, and B to C..

BTW, you guys have inspired me to enroll in an online course on how to use chords in songs, and not just
the same ole, same ole....but breaking out of the 6 chord diatonic prison and opening up my songs. I ran into
it here, and I think one of you posted the link, so thank you:

Reidmoto

@Bill from November Sound, he's asked about the tritone!! This might be a FORUM CLEARER!!!  :o :o :o

Do you know?  I'd not noticed or forgotten that every note in the tritone resolves by half-step to the tonic...I don't think that's the only reason it works, or more precisely, that's an interesting side effect.  The thing that's important is it acts as a substitute for the dominant G7, and you can substitute chords for one another if they share two notes.  This substitution is made all the more powerful because the two notes they share, the 3rd (B) and the 7th (F) of the G7, are there in reverse in Db7 (3rd=F, and 7th=Cb*), plus the chord also has dominant quality.  It's a lovely sound...I presume you noticed the one in Dolcelatte?

* B is spelled Cb in Db7, because we already have a Bb in the scale it's built from and you can't repeat letters in scales...

P.S. I'm glad you've signed up for that course!! That was me that put the video up...it's really good to use more interesting chords in compositions I think...you probably saw the post about that recently.


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #28 on: July 20, 2018, 17:57:05
@Jim and @Bill from November Sound, I dug up my study materials that my teacher from the Grove School of Music,
used and I studied with him for over a year. I have forgotten most of it, but some of it stuck LOL.

Here are some screenshots, approximately 400 pages total:

http://prntscr.com/k8wzmt

http://prntscr.com/k8wzy1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fpzjs6fezcbnpc/IMG_2193.JPG?dl=0

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uc6c4e1uv1pc0x/IMG_2195.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjt529tih1jnkl3/IMG_2194.JPG?dl=0

If you guys would like a copy of it, I will get over to Staples when I have time,
make one copy, and send it to one of you. Then whoever I send it to, can do
the same and send it to the other.

Reidmoto

That's a very kind offer, but I think the postage to the UK might be a bit expensive.   :o  It looks good stuff as well...but as I say, there's so much online these days I can make do with that...plus I have some textbooks already - Rawlin's Jazzology isn't a bad one to get started with.


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Re: Music Theory : The Circle Of Fifths
Reply #29 on: July 20, 2018, 18:10:45
Ok, all that makes sense @Jim. Are you referring to the B7 over the lyric "blue?"

That would be a tritone to F in the key of Bb.

I don't mind paying the postage, but I hear you, there is so much information online that info
overload is a real liability. We can spend so much time studying theory, that we never write songs.

Best.

Reidmoto